Thread on the origin of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla

This is HTML version of the thread from Alt.coffee and cross-posted to several other newsgroups.

Subject: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla

 1   07/15 Andrew Comech    Coffee lovers: ...
 2   07/15 Cluster User     |-> 
 3   07/15 H.M.Hubey        |->
 4   07/18 Tisinli          | |->
 5   07/18 Cluster User     | | *->
 6   07/15 Mike Wright      | |->
 7   07/16 Cluster User     | | |->
 8   07/19 Tisinli          | | | *->
 9   07/19 Cluster User     | | |   *->
10   07/19 H.M.Hubey        | | |     *->
11   07/20 Cluster User     | | |       *->
12   07/20 H.M.Hubey        | | |         *->
13   07/20 Full Name        | | |           |->
14   07/20 Full Name        | | |           |->
15   07/21 Cluster User     | | |           *->
16   07/21 H.M.Hubey        | | |             |->
17   07/22 Cluster User     | | |             | |->
18   07/21 H.M.Hubey        | | |             | *->
19   07/22 Cluster User     | | |             |   *->
20   07/22 Cluster User     | | |             *->
21   07/21 H.M.Hubey        | | |               |->
22   07/21 Bobo Bonobo      | | |               | |->
23   07/22 Cluster User     | | |               | *->
24   07/22 H.M.Hubey        | | |               |   *->
25   07/22 Cluster User     | | |               |     *->
26   07/22 H.M.Hubey        | | |               |       *->
27   07/22 Cluster User     | | |               *->
28   07/16 Cluster User     | | *->  
29   07/16 Cluster User     | *->
30   07/16 H.M.Hubey        |   *->  
31   07/17 Cluster User     |     *->
32   07/16 Leila A.         |-> 
33   07/15 mb               | |->
34   07/16 Cluster User     | | |->  
35   07/16 Cluster User     | | | |->
36   07/17 Leila A.         | | | | *->  
37   07/17 Saabirah         | | | |   |->
38   07/17 Cluster User     | | | |   | *-> 
39   07/17 Cluster User     | | | |   *->
40   07/16 Cluster User     | | | *->
41   07/17 Tisinli          | | |   *->  
42   07/17 Cluster User     | | |     *->
43   07/17 Konstantopoulos  | | *->  
44   07/16 Cluster User     | |->
45   07/16 Cluster User     | | *->  
46   07/16 P&D Schultz      | *->
47   07/17 Leila A.         |   *->  
48   07/20 bonnie6807@my-d  |     *->
49   07/16 Philip 'Yes, th  |-> 
50   07/17 Konstantopoulos  | *->
51   07/16 Cluster User     |-> 
52   07/17 I840COFFEE       | *->
53   07/17 Isadora S Cohen  *-> 
54   07/17 P&D Schultz        *->
55   07/17 Cluster User         |->  
56   07/18 Cluster User         | |->
57   07/19 Cluster User         | | |->  
58   07/22 Murat Kalinyapr      | | *->  
59   07/22 Skitt                | |   *->
60   07/18 Nikos Sarantako      | *->
61   07/19 ACKC3380             |   *->
62   07/17 Isadora S Cohen      |->
63   07/17 Cluster User         | |->
64   07/18 Isadora S Cohen      | | *->
65   07/18 Leila A.             | *->
66   07/18 RNR                  |   *->
67   07/23 Philip 'Yes, th      *->


(<< Back to top)

From: finger@math.sunysb.edu (Andrew Comech) Subject: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Reply-To: finger@math.sunysb.edu Date: 15 Jul 1999 15:37:08 -0500 Hi, I became interested in the name for a small long-handled coffee pot for making Turkish coffee, and would like to find out more. Here is what I learned so far: 1. cezve (jezve, gezve) -- Turkish? 2. ibrik (another Turkish?) -> briki (also mpriki, biriki; Greek) http://www.natashascafe.com/html/oldibrik.html 3. rakwa (also raqwa) -- ?? http://www.ineas.org/zannobiya.htm 4. dalla (also dallah and dala) -- ?? http://www.uae.org.ae/Culture/artisans.html Two latter words appear to be the names for a bigger water vessel with a spout, and is not necessarily for making coffee.. I would appreciate information about all these words (origin, meaning, and usage). Are there other common names which I ought to know? Thank you! Andrew PS. Here is some email which I received some time ago: : >How do you [Greeks] call this tiny pot for making REAL COFFEE? : >I guess I should not write "Turkish" -- well, GREEK COFFEE? : Well... We call it GREEK COFFEE, but it is TURKISH COFFEE in reality. : Informatively, one Greek folklorist (Ilias Petropoulos) wrote a book titled: : O TOYRKIKOS KAFES EN ELLADI = The Turkish coffee in Greece. : >So far I learned that Americans have no proper word for it (neither have : >they good coffee), but probably "ibrik" and (?) "cezve" are Turkish : >names, and "briki" is a Greek one; do you have anything to say about it? : We call it MPRIKI (we pronounce the English B as MP : Greek letters Mu Pi) : It is etymologized from the Turkish "ibrik", as you write. : Greetings from Athens : Antreas Meanwile, I will go get some coffee ;-)


(<< Back to top)

From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 22:34:23 GMT Organization: Yale University On 15 Jul 1999 15:37:08 -0500, finger@math.sunysb.edu (Andrew Comech) wrote: > >Hi, > >I became interested in the name for a small long-handled >coffee pot for making Turkish coffee, and would like to find >out more. Here is what I learned so far: > >1. cezve (jezve, gezve) -- Turkish? cezve is turkish, judging from the ottoman spelling in arabic script as ce*dh*ve (read cezve) it is based on arabic ja*dh*wa(t) - a burning log or coal (presumabely because the pot was heated on them) > >2. ibrik (another Turkish?) -> briki (also mpriki, biriki; Greek) > http://www.natashascafe.com/html/oldibrik.html ibrik is turkish from arabic 'ibri''q in turn a rendition of persian a:bri:z - a:b water, ri:z (older re^z) a cup. > >3. rakwa (also raqwa) -- ?? > http://www.ineas.org/zannobiya.htm rakwa is given by the dictionaries, arabic (originally according to hava a leather bag for water, later a coffee pot) > >4. dalla (also dallah and dala) -- ?? > http://www.uae.org.ae/Culture/artisans.html dalla . arabic. > >Two latter words appear to be the names for a bigger water vessel >with a spout, and is not necessarily for making coffee.. > > >I would appreciate information about all these words (origin, >meaning, and usage). Are there other common names which I >ought to know? > >Thank you! >Andrew > > >PS. Here is some email which I received some time ago: > >: >How do you [Greeks] call this tiny pot for making REAL COFFEE? >: >I guess I should not write "Turkish" -- well, GREEK COFFEE? > >: Well... We call it GREEK COFFEE, but it is TURKISH COFFEE in reality. >: Informatively, one Greek folklorist (Ilias Petropoulos) wrote a book titled: >: O TOYRKIKOS KAFES EN ELLADI = The Turkish coffee in Greece. > >: >So far I learned that Americans have no proper word for it (neither have >: >they good coffee), but probably "ibrik" and (?) "cezve" are Turkish >: >names, and "briki" is a Greek one; do you have anything to say about it? > >: We call it MPRIKI (we pronounce the English B as MP : Greek letters Mu Pi) >: It is etymologized from the Turkish "ibrik", as you write. > >: Greetings from Athens >: Antreas > >Meanwile, I will go get some coffee ;-) >


(<< Back to top)

From: "H.M.Hubey" Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 22:39:02 -0400 Organization: Montclair State University Reply-To: Mark.Hubey@montclair.edu Andrew Comech wrote: > > Hi, > > I became interested in the name for a small long-handled > coffee pot for making Turkish coffee, and would like to find > out more. Here is what I learned so far: > > 1. cezve (jezve, gezve) -- Turkish? Neither Redhouse, nor Eren have anything to say. But cez means bronze in Karachay-Balkar (UFuk TAvkul). It could be from some other language; it is hard to tell. Oztopcu's Turkic language dictionary has nothing on bronze. > 2. ibrik (another Turkish?) -> briki (also mpriki, biriki; Greek) > http://www.natashascafe.com/html/oldibrik.html Redhouse says it's ARabic. It probably is. The words below also sound ARabic. > 3. rakwa (also raqwa) -- ?? > http://www.ineas.org/zannobiya.htm > > 4. dalla (also dallah and dala) -- ?? > http://www.uae.org.ae/Culture/artisans.html > > Two latter words appear to be the names for a bigger water vessel > with a spout, and is not necessarily for making coffee.. > > I would appreciate information about all these words (origin, > meaning, and usage). Are there other common names which I > ought to know? -- Sincerely, M. Hubey hubeyh@mail.montclair.edu http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey


(<< Back to top)

From: tisinli@aol.com (Tisinli) Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: 18 Jul 1999 08:00:02 GMT "H.M.Hubey" wrote >Andrew Comech wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> I became interested in the name for a small long-handled >> coffee pot for making Turkish coffee, and would like to find >> out more. Here is what I learned so far: >> >> 1. cezve (jezve, gezve) -- Turkish? > >Neither Redhouse, nor Eren have anything to say. But cez means >bronze in Karachay-Balkar (UFuk TAvkul). It could be from some >other language; it is hard to tell. Oztopcu's Turkic language >dictionary has nothing on bronze. > >> 2. ibrik (another Turkish?) -> briki (also mpriki, biriki; Greek) >> http://www.natashascafe.com/html/oldibrik.html > >Redhouse says it's ARabic. It probably is. > Cluster User says (somewhere in this thread) that it is persian. It may well be, but the Turkic (at least N.I. Turkmen) verb: *ib- > ib-in-mek (to be soaked; to be watered), and *ib- > ib-it-mek (to soak, specially overnight; to water) must be taken into consideration too. It has all the ingredients to be the ancestor for "ibrik." >The words below also sound ARabic. > >> 3. rakwa (also raqwa) -- ?? >> http://www.ineas.org/zannobiya.htm >> >> 4. dalla (also dallah and dala) -- ?? >> http://www.uae.org.ae/Culture/artisans.html >> >> Two latter words appear to be the names for a bigger water vessel >> with a spout, and is not necessarily for making coffee.. >> >> I would appreciate information about all these words (origin, >> meaning, and usage). Are there other common names which I >> ought to know? > >-- >Sincerely, >M. Hubey >hubeyh@mail.montclair.edu >http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey


(<< Back to top)

From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 18:41:55 GMT Organization: Yale University On 18 Jul 1999 08:00:02 GMT, tisinli@aol.com (Tisinli) wrote: >"H.M.Hubey" wrote > >>Andrew Comech wrote: >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> I became interested in the name for a small long-handled >>> coffee pot for making Turkish coffee, and would like to find >>> out more. Here is what I learned so far: >>> >>> 1. cezve (jezve, gezve) -- Turkish? >> >>Neither Redhouse, nor Eren have anything to say. But cez means >>bronze in Karachay-Balkar (UFuk TAvkul). It could be from some >>other language; it is hard to tell. Oztopcu's Turkic language >>dictionary has nothing on bronze. >> >>> 2. ibrik (another Turkish?) -> briki (also mpriki, biriki; Greek) >>> http://www.natashascafe.com/html/oldibrik.html >> >>Redhouse says it's ARabic. It probably is. >> >Cluster User says (somewhere in this thread) that it is persian. It may well >be, but the Turkic (at least N.I. Turkmen) verb: > > *ib- > ib-in-mek (to be soaked; to be watered), and > *ib- > ib-it-mek (to soak, specially overnight; to water) > >must be taken into consideration too. It has all the ingredients to be the >ancestor for "ibrik." 'ibri''q sseem to come from a:b ri:z (persian) 1. in turkish it was loaned from aarbic, note spelling with qaf rather than kaf, which is not found with front vowels. 2. a turkish loan in arabic wouldn't have qaf with front vowels either. 3. qaf may have represented late middle persian or early new persian -k (continuation of syriac scribal practice) or -g. perhaps a dimunitive. or, a reflex of -z in some dialect. 4. these seem to have entered arabic before turkish migration into the area. 5. medieval iran was a source of fine metalworks.. 6. the container has more general uses than "soaking" coffee beans. 7. I don't know of any turkic cognate to the iraqi tUrkmen words. they may have come from the same arabic rendering of persian a:b. 8. it is generally a waste of time try to sort out over again loans in turkish from persian (after a certain period) and arabic. lexicographers had taken careful track of that. > >>The words below also sound ARabic. >> >>> 3. rakwa (also raqwa) -- ?? >>> http://www.ineas.org/zannobiya.htm >>> >>> 4. dalla (also dallah and dala) -- ?? >>> http://www.uae.org.ae/Culture/artisans.html >>> >>> Two latter words appear to be the names for a bigger water vessel >>> with a spout, and is not necessarily for making coffee.. >>> >>> I would appreciate information about all these words (origin, >>> meaning, and usage). Are there other common names which I >>> ought to know? >> >>-- >>Sincerely, >>M. Hubey >>hubeyh@mail.montclair.edu >>http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey >> >> >> >> >> >> > >


(<< Back to top)

From: Mike Wright Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 22:32:08 -0700 Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - The Internet's Discussion Network "H.M.Hubey" wrote: > > Andrew Comech wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > I became interested in the name for a small long-handled > > coffee pot for making Turkish coffee, and would like to find > > out more. Here is what I learned so far: > > > > 1. cezve (jezve, gezve) -- Turkish? > > Neither Redhouse, nor Eren have anything to say. But cez means > bronze in Karachay-Balkar (UFuk TAvkul). It could be from some > other language; it is hard to tell. Oztopcu's Turkic language > dictionary has nothing on bronze. Items 2, 3, and 4 all seem to be Arabic. My source is Hans Wehr's _A Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic_. (All that's left of my Arabic is the ability to use a dictionary.) There doesn't seem to be anything on the origin of any of them. > > 2. ibrik (another Turkish?) -> briki (also mpriki, biriki; Greek) > > http://www.natashascafe.com/html/oldibrik.html > > Redhouse says it's ARabic. It probably is. "Ibriiq" - "pitcher, jug" > The words below also sound ARabic. > > > 3. rakwa (also raqwa) -- ?? > > http://www.ineas.org/zannobiya.htm "rakwa" - Syrian "small coffee pot of copper, having a long handle" > > 4. dalla (also dallah and dala) -- ?? > > http://www.uae.org.ae/Culture/artisans.html "dalla" - "pot with long curved spout and handle used for making coffee (among Syrian nomads and in some parts of Saudi Arabia" > > Two latter words appear to be the names for a bigger water vessel > > with a spout, and is not necessarily for making coffee.. > > > > I would appreciate information about all these words (origin, > > meaning, and usage). Are there other common names which I > > ought to know? -- Mike Wright http://www.mbay.net/~darwin/language.html _____________________________________________________ "China is a big country, inhabited by many Chinese." -- Charles de Gaulle


(<< Back to top)

From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:35:25 GMT Organization: Yale University On Thu, 15 Jul 1999 22:32:08 -0700, Mike Wright wrote: >"H.M.Hubey" wrote: >> >> Andrew Comech wrote: >> > >> > Hi, >> > >> > I became interested in the name for a small long-handled >> > coffee pot for making Turkish coffee, and would like to find >> > out more. Here is what I learned so far: >> > >> > 1. cezve (jezve, gezve) -- Turkish? >> >> Neither Redhouse, nor Eren have anything to say. But cez means >> bronze in Karachay-Balkar (UFuk TAvkul). It could be from some >> other language; it is hard to tell. Oztopcu's Turkic language >> dictionary has nothing on bronze. > >Items 2, 3, and 4 all seem to be Arabic. My source is Hans Wehr's _A Dictionary >of Modern Written Arabic_. (All that's left of my Arabic is the ability to use a >dictionary.) There doesn't seem to be anything on the origin of any of them. > >> > 2. ibrik (another Turkish?) -> briki (also mpriki, biriki; Greek) >> > http://www.natashascafe.com/html/oldibrik.html >> >> Redhouse says it's ARabic. It probably is. > >"Ibriiq" - "pitcher, jug" > yes, in turkish it is of arabic origin, of persian origin - see stenigass persian -english under "ibri:q"


(<< Back to top)

From: tisinli@aol.com (Tisinli) Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: 19 Jul 1999 05:54:21 GMT cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) >On Thu, 15 Jul 1999 22:32:08 -0700, Mike Wright >wrote: > >>"H.M.Hubey" wrote: >>> >>> Andrew Comech wrote: >>> > >>> > Hi, >>> > >>> > I became interested in the name for a small long-handled >>> > coffee pot for making Turkish coffee, and would like to find >>> > out more. Here is what I learned so far: >>> > >>> > 1. cezve (jezve, gezve) -- Turkish? >>> >>> Neither Redhouse, nor Eren have anything to say. But cez means >>> bronze in Karachay-Balkar (UFuk TAvkul). It could be from some >>> other language; it is hard to tell. Oztopcu's Turkic language >>> dictionary has nothing on bronze. >> >>Items 2, 3, and 4 all seem to be Arabic. My source is Hans Wehr's _A >Dictionary >>of Modern Written Arabic_. (All that's left of my Arabic is the ability to >use a >>dictionary.) There doesn't seem to be anything on the origin of any of them. >> >>> > 2. ibrik (another Turkish?) -> briki (also mpriki, biriki; Greek) >>> > http://www.natashascafe.com/html/oldibrik.html >>> >>> Redhouse says it's ARabic. It probably is. >> >>"Ibriiq" - "pitcher, jug" >> > > >yes, in turkish it is of arabic origin, of persian origin - see >stenigass persian -english under "ibri:q" S. Haim (Persian-English Dictionary) does not recognize the word "ibrik" (written as "ibri:q" but pronounced as "ebreegh" in Persian) as Persian and dubs it Arabic. Find my analysis in this thread (July, 18) (ib-in-mek and ib-it-mek). p.s. Haim does mention "pengan" as a root for "finjan", but without givining its (possible) meaning. If "pinga:n" (or "pengan") are not explained, it has no value, at least as far as etymology is concerned. Tisinli


(<< Back to top)

From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 19:17:51 GMT Organization: Yale University On 19 Jul 1999 05:54:21 GMT, tisinli@aol.com (Tisinli) wrote: >cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) > >>On Thu, 15 Jul 1999 22:32:08 -0700, Mike Wright >>wrote: >> >>>"H.M.Hubey" wrote: >>>> >>>> Andrew Comech wrote: >>>> > >>>> > Hi, >>>> > >>>> > I became interested in the name for a small long-handled >>>> > coffee pot for making Turkish coffee, and would like to find >>>> > out more. Here is what I learned so far: >>>> > >>>> > 1. cezve (jezve, gezve) -- Turkish? >>>> >>>> Neither Redhouse, nor Eren have anything to say. But cez means >>>> bronze in Karachay-Balkar (UFuk TAvkul). It could be from some >>>> other language; it is hard to tell. Oztopcu's Turkic language >>>> dictionary has nothing on bronze. >>> >>>Items 2, 3, and 4 all seem to be Arabic. My source is Hans Wehr's _A >>Dictionary >>>of Modern Written Arabic_. (All that's left of my Arabic is the ability to >>use a >>>dictionary.) There doesn't seem to be anything on the origin of any of them. >>> >>>> > 2. ibrik (another Turkish?) -> briki (also mpriki, biriki; Greek) >>>> > http://www.natashascafe.com/html/oldibrik.html >>>> >>>> Redhouse says it's ARabic. It probably is. >>> >>>"Ibriiq" - "pitcher, jug" >>> >> >> >>yes, in turkish it is of arabic origin, of persian origin - see >>stenigass persian -english under "ibri:q" > >S. Haim (Persian-English Dictionary) does not recognize the word "ibrik" see steingass, which gives more detail and concerns itself with the classical new persian. >(written as "ibri:q" but pronounced as "ebreegh" in Persian) as Persian and it is a loan from arabic, in which it was a loan form earlier persian. haim gives the modern tehrani pronounciation. >dubs it Arabic. Find my analysis in this thread (July, 18) (ib-in-mek and >ib-it-mek). I told why turkic is to be rejected. > >p.s. Haim does mention "pengan" as a root for "finjan", but without givining >its (possible) meaning. If "pinga:n" (or "pengan") are not explained, it has no >value, at least as far as etymology is concerned. > > it's of greek origin. >Tisinli


(<< Back to top)

From: "H.M.Hubey" Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 21:46:56 -0400 Organization: Montclair State University Reply-To: Mark.Hubey@montclair.edu Cluster User wrote: > > > > > >S. Haim (Persian-English Dictionary) does not recognize the word "ibrik" > > see steingass, which gives more detail and concerns itself with the > classical new persian. > > >(written as "ibri:q" but pronounced as "ebreegh" in Persian) as Persian and > > it is a loan from arabic, in which it was a loan form earlier persian. > haim gives the modern tehrani pronounciation. > > >dubs it Arabic. Find my analysis in this thread (July, 18) (ib-in-mek and > >ib-it-mek). \ > I told why turkic is to be rejected. Ok. Let's do this from the start. I think there is a Sumerian word absu (bottom water). At first I thought it was like alt=bottom, su=water as in Turkic. But Sumerian adjectives follow the noun as in lu-gal lu=man, gal=high,great, thus lugal=king. (see below on this). So absu must be ab=water, su=bottom. And ibrig (ib=water),and abdest (ab=water) seem like they are both from Sumerian ab. NOw for the clincher, cibit=to wet something, and cibi=wet can be found in Karachay-Balkar. Since initical c in KB corresponds to Turkish y, and since many words that originally had c or y initially have lost them, ib can easily be also Turkic, but the root must go back to Sumerian. -- Sincerely, M. Hubey hubeyh@mail.montclair.edu http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey


(<< Back to top)

From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 22:40:08 GMT Organization: Yale University On Mon, 19 Jul 1999 21:46:56 -0400, "H.M.Hubey" wrote: >Cluster User wrote: >> >> >> > >> >S. Haim (Persian-English Dictionary) does not recognize the word "ibrik" >> >> see steingass, which gives more detail and concerns itself with the >> classical new persian. >> >> >(written as "ibri:q" but pronounced as "ebreegh" in Persian) as Persian and >> >> it is a loan from arabic, in which it was a loan form earlier persian. >> haim gives the modern tehrani pronounciation. >> >> >dubs it Arabic. Find my analysis in this thread (July, 18) (ib-in-mek and >> >ib-it-mek). >\ >> I told why turkic is to be rejected. > >Ok. Let's do this from the start. I think there is a Sumerian word gee, always has to go to sumerian! these are irrelevant, the words in question do not go back to sumerian times! >absu (bottom water). At first I thought it was like alt=bottom, su=water >as in Turkic. But Sumerian adjectives follow the noun as in lu-gal >lu=man, gal=high,great, thus lugal=king. (see below on this). > >So absu must be ab=water, su=bottom. > persian a:b is indo-european (sans. apa, latin aqua). PIE *akwa is regarded by ruhlen to go to proto-world. cognates are irrelevant. >And ibrig (ib=water),and abdest (ab=water) seem like they are both abdest, persian a:b dast (dast = hand, litt. "handwater", i.e. ablution). the word is persian! as for "ibrig" it is not clear if arabic qaf intended to render a persian k or g, but teh standard pronounciationis 'ibri:q >from Sumerian ab. NOw for the clincher, cibit=to wet something, they are from *persian* a:b. cognates are irrelevant. >and cibi=wet can be found in Karachay-Balkar. Since initical c in KB >corresponds to Turkish y, and since many words that originally had fine, this would be the source of the turkmen word, but I don't have any information as to its history. >c or y initially have lost them, ib can easily be also Turkic, but on does not know it's history, as common turkic y-, qychaq c- could originally have represnted many sounds, and one does not know in this case wether itis secondary or not. >the root must go back to Sumerian. > > > >-- >Sincerely, >M. Hubey >hubeyh@mail.montclair.edu >http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey > >


(<< Back to top)

From: "H.M.Hubey" Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 22:21:44 -0400 Organization: Montclair State University Reply-To: Mark.Hubey@montclair.edu Cluster User wrote: > > On Mon, 19 Jul 1999 21:46:56 -0400, "H.M.Hubey" > wrote: > > >Cluster User wrote: > >> > >> > >> > > >> >S. Haim (Persian-English Dictionary) does not recognize the word "ibrik" > >> > >> see steingass, which gives more detail and concerns itself with the > >> classical new persian. > >> > >> >(written as "ibri:q" but pronounced as "ebreegh" in Persian) as Persian and > >> > >> it is a loan from arabic, in which it was a loan form earlier persian. > >> haim gives the modern tehrani pronounciation. > >> > >> >dubs it Arabic. Find my analysis in this thread (July, 18) (ib-in-mek and > >> >ib-it-mek). > >\ > >> I told why turkic is to be rejected. > > > >Ok. Let's do this from the start. I think there is a Sumerian word > > gee, always has to go to sumerian! > > these are irrelevant, the words in question do not go back > to sumerian times! Turkic ak (to flow), Hittite eku (to drink), Turkic ich (to drink), Turkic ash (food), Turkic ach (hungry), etc etc. But the earliest in the records is Sumerian. No doubt about it. > persian a:b is indo-european (sans. apa, latin aqua). > PIE *akwa is regarded by ruhlen to go to proto-world. Why isn't Hittite wataras (the earliest written IE language) insufficient for IE? > > cognates are irrelevant. > > >And ibrig (ib=water),and abdest (ab=water) seem like they are both > > abdest, persian a:b dast (dast = hand, litt. "handwater", i.e. > ablution). the word is persian! I pointed out where it came from. If you ignore Sumerian, then why not ignore Iranian ab and go with Turkic cibi/yibi? What is the meaning of Iranian suffix -rik? On the other hand, look at how words are formed in Turkic: Karachay-Balkar has cum-dur-uk (fist) from cum (to close). This in Oguz-Turkmen should have been yum-dur-uk. But via assimilation instead we have yudruk and yumruk. There is a similar formation from karin-dash (karin=abdomen,womb). The -dash suffix is used in yoldash (road-mates), arkadash (sharing the same back ie. friend), adash (sharing the same name). Anyway everyone knows the -dash suffix. karindash (womb-mates, i.e. siblings) has become karnash, and kardash. Now look at the root from cibi/yibi (to get wet); cibi-tir-ik (just like yumduruk). It has become yibrik> ibrik, as Turkic as the Osmanli Bank. It is used to pour water to wash up. It looks as Turkish as kardash/karnash and yumruk/yudruk. I even said it was Arabic at first, but then I realized it was not. Chalk up another Turkic word borrowed into Farsi and passed off as native. Are you keeping count? -- Sincerely, M. Hubey hubeyh@mail.montclair.edu http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey


(<< Back to top)

From: Full Name Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 22:24:37 -0700 "H.M.Hubey" wrote: > > Cluster User wrote: > > > > But the earliest in the records is Sumerian. No doubt about it. > > > persian a:b is indo-european (sans. apa, latin aqua). > > PIE *akwa is regarded by ruhlen to go to proto-world. > > Why isn't Hittite wataras (the earliest written IE language) > insufficient for IE? > I don't understand why it should be sufficient. F. N.


(<< Back to top)

From: Full Name Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 22:29:39 -0700 "H.M.Hubey" wrote: > It is used to pour water to wash up. > > It looks as Turkish as kardash/karnash and yumruk/yudruk. > > I even said it was Arabic at first, but then I realized > it was not. Chalk up another Turkic word borrowed into > Farsi and passed off as native. Are you keeping count? > No, I lost it. It is much better not to count stupidities. F. N.


(<< Back to top)

From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 17:06:48 GMT Organization: Yale University On Tue, 20 Jul 1999 22:21:44 -0400, "H.M.Hubey" wrote: > > >Cluster User wrote: >> >> On Mon, 19 Jul 1999 21:46:56 -0400, "H.M.Hubey" >> wrote: >> >> >Cluster User wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >S. Haim (Persian-English Dictionary) does not recognize the word "ibrik" >> >> >> >> see steingass, which gives more detail and concerns itself with the >> >> classical new persian. >> >> >> >> >(written as "ibri:q" but pronounced as "ebreegh" in Persian) as Persian and >> >> >> >> it is a loan from arabic, in which it was a loan form earlier persian. >> >> haim gives the modern tehrani pronounciation. >> >> >> >> >dubs it Arabic. Find my analysis in this thread (July, 18) (ib-in-mek and >> >> >ib-it-mek). >> >\ >> >> I told why turkic is to be rejected. >> > >> >Ok. Let's do this from the start. I think there is a Sumerian word >> >> gee, always has to go to sumerian! >> >> these are irrelevant, the words in question do not go back >> to sumerian times! > >Turkic ak (to flow), Hittite eku (to drink), Turkic ich (to drink), >Turkic ash (food), Turkic ach (hungry), etc etc. > >But the earliest in the records is Sumerian. No doubt about it. > a:b in farsi (and persian in general) goes back to indo-iranian and indo-european. it is not a loanword. cognates are not relevant to this thread. > >> persian a:b is indo-european (sans. apa, latin aqua). >> PIE *akwa is regarded by ruhlen to go to proto-world. > >Why isn't Hittite wataras (the earliest written IE language) >insufficient for IE? > >> >> cognates are irrelevant. >> >> >And ibrig (ib=water),and abdest (ab=water) seem like they are both (it turns out that q need not render middle persian -g after all) >> >> abdest, persian a:b dast (dast = hand, litt. "handwater", i.e. >> ablution). the word is persian! > >I pointed out where it came from. If you ignore Sumerian, then >why not ignore Iranian ab and go with Turkic cibi/yibi? What because the word was borrowed from persian ands makes sense in persian. I also pointed out factors which rule out turkic for "ibri:q" >is the meaning of Iranian suffix -rik? On the other hand, >look at how words are formed in Turkic: > it's not a suffix. it represents a seperate word. in persian it is a:bri:z (a:b ri:z - still used). ri:z is the present stem of ri:*kh*tan, to pour, with past stem ri:*kh* (new persian forms). such alterations in persian and iranian in general are common. arabic avoids shut syllables with long vowels (except at the end of a word which in classical arabic is taken care of with a case ending), thus /a:/ was shortened to /a/. this became /i/ within arabic, probably due to the phonolgy of the colloquial of the times, as there are a few other examples in which initial /a/ is rendered /i/ in loans. > ... I will respond to some of this material elsewhere, exclusively in sci.lang and in another thread ("some turkic words") > >It is used to pour water to wash up. exactly. > > ... > >I even said it was Arabic at first, but then I realized >it was not. Chalk up another Turkic word borrowed into >Farsi and passed off as native. Are you keeping count? > there are many words of turkic origin in farsi, but you generally give bad examples. > > >-- >Sincerely, >M. Hubey >hubeyh@mail.montclair.edu >http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey


(<< Back to top)

From: "H.M.Hubey" Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 19:50:41 -0400 Organization: Montclair State University Reply-To: Mark.Hubey@montclair.edu Cluster User wrote: > > >is the meaning of Iranian suffix -rik? On the other hand, > >look at how words are formed in Turkic: > > > > it's not a suffix. it represents a seperate word. in persian it is > a:bri:z (a:b ri:z - still used). ri:z is the present stem of > ri:*kh*tan, to pour, with past stem ri:*kh* (new persian forms). such > alterations in persian and iranian in general are common. > > arabic avoids shut syllables with long vowels (except at the end of a > word which in classical arabic is taken care of with a case ending), > thus /a:/ was shortened to /a/. this became /i/ within arabic, > probably due to the phonolgy of the colloquial of the times, as there > are a few other examples in which initial /a/ is rendered /i/ in > loans. ... > there are many words of turkic origin in farsi, but you generally give > bad examples. Since the earliest form goes back as far as Sumerian they must all be from Sumerian. Meanwhile.... I stick to my derivation. Here it is again. cibi/yibi is Turkic for "get wet". yum-dur-uk > yumruk (Turkish) yibi-dir-ik > yibrik > ibrik (Turkish) kar-in-dash > kardash (Turkish) The form yudruk can be found. The form karnash exists. And the form cumduruk also is attested. Cibi exist, and also exists in the causative 'cibit'. If I am not mistaken there is something like 'jibi' even in Eskimo-Aleut. Yumduruk/yudruk/yumruk was discussed about a year ago on Altainet also and the form cracked some problem which I can't recall now. I think it had something to do with Mongolian nidurga. -- Sincerely, M. Hubey hubeyh@mail.montclair.edu http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey


(<< Back to top)

From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 00:30:16 GMT Organization: Yale University On Wed, 21 Jul 1999 19:50:41 -0400, "H.M.Hubey" wrote: > > >Cluster User wrote: >> >> >is the meaning of Iranian suffix -rik? On the other hand, >> >look at how words are formed in Turkic: >> > >> >> it's not a suffix. it represents a seperate word. in persian it is >> a:bri:z (a:b ri:z - still used). ri:z is the present stem of >> ri:*kh*tan, to pour, with past stem ri:*kh* (new persian forms). such >> alterations in persian and iranian in general are common. >> >> arabic avoids shut syllables with long vowels (except at the end of a >> word which in classical arabic is taken care of with a case ending), >> thus /a:/ was shortened to /a/. this became /i/ within arabic, >> probably due to the phonolgy of the colloquial of the times, as there >> are a few other examples in which initial /a/ is rendered /i/ in >> loans. >... >> there are many words of turkic origin in farsi, but you generally give >> bad examples. > >Since the earliest form goes back as far as Sumerian they must all >be from Sumerian. irrelevant ot this thread. > >Meanwhile.... > >I stick to my derivation. Here it is again. cibi/yibi is Turkic for do whatever you like. try publishing it if you can! frankly I don't think you are sincere. >"get wet". it's not about "getting wet" and the word in arabic dates to a period where there were no substantial amount of turks around the area. > > yum-dur-uk > yumruk (Turkish) > yibi-dir-ik > yibrik > ibrik (Turkish) none of these two words are attested and ibrik is not originally turkish. > kar-in-dash > kardash (Turkish) > >The form yudruk can be found. The form karnash exists. And the form >cumduruk also is attested. Cibi exist, and also exists in the causative >'cibit'. If I am not mistaken there is something like 'jibi' even >in Eskimo-Aleut. Yumduruk/yudruk/yumruk was discussed about a year >ago on Altainet also and the form cracked some problem which I can't >recall now. I think it had something to do with Mongolian nidurga. > > irrelevant to this thread. >-- >Sincerely, >M. Hubey >hubeyh@mail.montclair.edu >http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey


(<< Back to top)

From: "H.M.Hubey" Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 22:09:53 -0400 Organization: Montclair State University Reply-To: Mark.Hubey@montclair.edu Cluster User wrote: > > > it's not about "getting wet" and the word in arabic dates to a period > where there were no substantial amount of turks around the area. > > > > > yum-dur-uk > yumruk (Turkish) > > yibi-dir-ik > yibrik > ibrik (Turkish) > > none of these three words are attested. All you have to do is join Altainet and ask them. cumduruk is attested, alive and well. cum=yum in y-Turkic. Indeed what I wrote above solved a critical problem in Altaics. It might show up in a journal soon if it has not already. It is connected with Mongolian nidurga. > > kar-in-dash > kardash (Turkish) > > > >The form yudruk can be found. The form karnash exists. And the form > >cumduruk also is attested. Cibi exist, and also exists in the causative > >'cibit'. If I am not mistaken there is something like 'jibi' even > >in Eskimo-Aleut. Yumduruk/yudruk/yumruk was discussed about a year > >ago on Altainet also and the form cracked some problem which I can't > >recall now. I think it had something to do with Mongolian nidurga. > > > > > > irrelevant to this thread. That is unfortunate that you say that because every linguist knows or should know that it is indeed most relevant because that is what historical linguistics is about. May I suggest that you graduate to the next level, give up reading and repeating and start using the rules to reconstruct? I am sincere. If you want to see it done, join Altainet. -- Sincerely, M. Hubey hubeyh@mail.montclair.edu http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey


(<< Back to top)

From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 14:40:10 GMT Organization: Yale University On Wed, 21 Jul 1999 22:09:53 -0400, "H.M.Hubey" wrote: > > >Cluster User wrote: >> >> >> it's not about "getting wet" and the word in arabic dates to a period >> where there were no substantial amount of turks around the area. >> >> > >> > yum-dur-uk > yumruk (Turkish) >> > yibi-dir-ik > yibrik > ibrik (Turkish) >> >> none of these three words are attested. > >All you have to do is join Altainet and ask them. cumduruk is attested, >alive and well. cum=yum in y-Turkic. Indeed what I wrote above >solved a critical problem in Altaics. It might show up in a journal soon >if it has not already. It is connected with Mongolian nidurga. you quoted a previous version of the post that I canceled because of an error in expression. the correct version is: << none of these two words are attested and ibrik is not originally turkish. >> I was refering to the two words preceding "ibrik". > > >> > kar-in-dash > kardash (Turkish) >> > >> >The form yudruk can be found. The form karnash exists. And the form >> >cumduruk also is attested. Cibi exist, and also exists in the causative >> >'cibit'. If I am not mistaken there is something like 'jibi' even >> >in Eskimo-Aleut. Yumduruk/yudruk/yumruk was discussed about a year >> >ago on Altainet also and the form cracked some problem which I can't >> >recall now. I think it had something to do with Mongolian nidurga. >> > >> > >> >> irrelevant to this thread. > >That is unfortunate that you say that because every linguist knows >or should know that it is indeed most relevant because that is >what historical linguistics is about. I said <>. this is not a place to discuss the etymology of the above words. > >May I suggest that you graduate to the next level, give up reading >and repeating and start using the rules to reconstruct? I am sincere. >If you want to see it done, join Altainet. > >-- >Sincerely, >M. Hubey >hubeyh@mail.montclair.edu >http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey


(<< Back to top)

From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 00:23:55 GMT Organization: Yale University On Wed, 21 Jul 1999 20:01:55 -0400, "H.M.Hubey" wrote: > > >Cluster User wrote: >> >> >> it's not a suffix. it represents a seperate word. in persian it is >> a:bri:z (a:b ri:z - still used). ri:z is the present stem of >> ri:*kh*tan, to pour, with past stem ri:*kh* (new persian forms). such >> alterations in persian and iranian in general are common. > >OK, then show me the immediate source of the word in turkish is arabic. note spelling with -q contrary to turkish phonetics. > >1. one example of a Turkish word borrowed from farsi in which a > i see above. >2. one example of a Turkish word borrowed from farsi in which z > k see above. > >One might find a>i from Farsi to Arabic, but I doubt you will find a ~ i is internal to arabic. >z > k. Otherwise how do you get a:bri:z > ibrik? z ~ k is internal to iranian (some medieval dialect during the arab occupation of iran, prior to the establishemnt of new persian as a literary medium). ri:z is from the present stem of ri:*kh*tan, ri:q a rendering from the past stem. such alterations are common in iranian and beween iranian languages (from another thread there was anda:z - present stem, anda:*kh* past stem. note also sindh (indic) / hind (old persian) > >-- >Sincerely, >M. Hubey >hubeyh@mail.montclair.edu >http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey


(<< Back to top)

From: "H.M.Hubey" Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 22:14:40 -0400 Organization: Montclair State University Reply-To: Mark.Hubey@montclair.edu Cluster User wrote: > > On Wed, 21 Jul 1999 20:01:55 -0400, "H.M.Hubey" > wrote: > > > > > > >Cluster User wrote: > >> > >> > >> it's not a suffix. it represents a seperate word. in persian it is > >> a:bri:z (a:b ri:z - still used). ri:z is the present stem of > >> ri:*kh*tan, to pour, with past stem ri:*kh* (new persian forms). such > >> alterations in persian and iranian in general are common. > > > >OK, then show me > > the immediate source of the word in turkish is arabic. note spelling > with -q contrary to turkish phonetics. 1. Spelling in the Redhouse dictionary has no q and cannot have it either because there is no q in Turkish. 2. That argument is not an argument. There are Turkic speakers who use a q instead of a k as a matter of dialect. The Istanbul city-slicker dialect might not have it but Turkish had it, and some still have it. Turkic has k, q, x, h, gh, etc. > z ~ k is internal to iranian (some medieval dialect during the arab > occupation of iran, prior to the establishemnt of new persian as a > literary medium). ri:z is from the present stem of ri:*kh*tan, ri:q a > rendering from the past stem. such alterations are common in iranian > and beween iranian languages (from another thread there was anda:z - > present stem, anda:*kh* past stem. If k>z in Farsi after the word passed into Turkish it had to happen after 1,000 CE or so. But I think it went the other way as can be seen plainly from the reconstructed evidence. If you think that experts from Altainet are required, you should join the list and ask them. You can get a free email account from hotmail.com and join the list. It is plainly not from Farsi. -- Sincerely, M. Hubey hubeyh@mail.montclair.edu http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey


(<< Back to top)

From: Bobo Bonobo Organization: The Bonobos Subject: Re:WHY ARE YOU CROSS-POSTING THIS TO alt.punk? (Was: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/???) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 21:31:21 -0700 This thread is getting really long. We're pretty tolerant of cross-posts, but this is getting ridiculous. "H.M.Hubey" wrote: > > Cluster User wrote: > > > > On Wed, 21 Jul 1999 20:01:55 -0400, "H.M.Hubey" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >Cluster User wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >> it's not a suffix. it represents a seperate word. in persian it is > > >> a:bri:z (a:b ri:z - still used). ri:z is the present stem of > > >> ri:*kh*tan, to pour, with past stem ri:*kh* (new persian forms). such > > >> alterations in persian and iranian in general are common. > > > > > >OK, then show me > > > > the immediate source of the word in turkish is arabic. note spelling > > with -q contrary to turkish phonetics. > > 1. Spelling in the Redhouse dictionary has no q and cannot have it > either > because there is no q in Turkish. > 2. That argument is not an argument. There are Turkic speakers who use > a q instead of a k as a matter of dialect. The Istanbul city-slicker > dialect might not have it but Turkish had it, and some still have it. > Turkic has k, q, x, h, gh, etc. > > > z ~ k is internal to iranian (some medieval dialect during the arab > > occupation of iran, prior to the establishemnt of new persian as a > > literary medium). ri:z is from the present stem of ri:*kh*tan, ri:q a > > rendering from the past stem. such alterations are common in iranian > > and beween iranian languages (from another thread there was anda:z - > > present stem, anda:*kh* past stem. > > If k>z in Farsi after the word passed into Turkish it had to happen > after 1,000 CE or so. But I think it went the other way as can be > seen plainly from the reconstructed evidence. If you think that > experts from Altainet are required, you should join the list and > ask them. You can get a free email account from hotmail.com and join > the list. It is plainly not from Farsi. > > -- > Sincerely, > M. Hubey > hubeyh@mail.montclair.edu > http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey -- Bryan http://members.primary.net/~creekhiker/ Rock'n Roll is about throwing the mainstream culture's ideas of morality and standards of behavior in the dumpster. In short, Rock'n Roll is lascivious, blasphemous, arrogant and downright sleazy. It is fantastic, escapist. Any rock that doesn't fit the above description is not Rock'n Roll. It is merely "rock music."


(<< Back to top)

From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 14:34:18 GMT Organization: Yale University On Wed, 21 Jul 1999 22:14:40 -0400, "H.M.Hubey" wrote: > > >Cluster User wrote: >> >> On Wed, 21 Jul 1999 20:01:55 -0400, "H.M.Hubey" >> wrote: >> >> > >> > >> >Cluster User wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> it's not a suffix. it represents a seperate word. in persian it is >> >> a:bri:z (a:b ri:z - still used). ri:z is the present stem of >> >> ri:*kh*tan, to pour, with past stem ri:*kh* (new persian forms). such >> >> alterations in persian and iranian in general are common. >> > >> >OK, then show me >> >> the immediate source of the word in turkish is arabic. note spelling >> with -q contrary to turkish phonetics. > >1. Spelling in the Redhouse dictionary has no q and cannot have it >either >because there is no q in Turkish. I was refering to the arabic script. >2. That argument is not an argument. There are Turkic speakers who use >a q instead of a k as a matter of dialect. The Istanbul city-slicker >dialect might not have it but Turkish had it, and some still have it. >Turkic has k, q, x, h, gh, etc. q is not found with front vowels in turkish (or for that matter all turkic languages that preserve vowel harmony). > >> z ~ k is internal to iranian (some medieval dialect during the arab >> occupation of iran, prior to the establishemnt of new persian as a >> literary medium). ri:z is from the present stem of ri:*kh*tan, ri:q a >> rendering from the past stem. such alterations are common in iranian >> and beween iranian languages (from another thread there was anda:z - >> present stem, anda:*kh* past stem. > > >If k>z in Farsi after the word passed into Turkish it had to happen >after 1,000 CE or so. But I think it went the other way as can be no, it is old. as for this particular word, there need not be a sound change (at least in its immediate history), as a:b ri:z and the immediate ancestor of 'ibri''q may have been formed from different stems of the same verb. >seen plainly from the reconstructed evidence. If you think that ?! >experts from Altainet are required, you should join the list and >ask them. You can get a free email account from hotmail.com and join >the list. It is plainly not from Farsi. it entered turkish from arabic. this is a matter of record. > >-- >Sincerely, >M. Hubey >hubeyh@mail.montclair.edu >http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey


(<< Back to top)

From: "H.M.Hubey" Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 11:51:19 -0400 Organization: Montclair State University Reply-To: Mark.Hubey@montclair.edu Cluster User wrote: > >experts from Altainet are required, you should join the list and > >ask them. You can get a free email account from hotmail.com and join > >the list. It is plainly not from Farsi. > > it entered turkish from arabic. this is a matter of record. YOu can look at a dictionary and say that a word is not there. That is not proof that it did not exist in the language. The dictionary could be bad. You can prove that a word exists in a language (if it is in the dictionary) but you cannot prove that it is not (if it is not in the dictionary)> Finally, you are ignoring the obvious. The word fits Turkic etymology much better than what you claim, and thus is evidence of prehistoric borrowing. That is what linguistic paleontology is about. Apparently you are not paying attention to what goes on in this newsgroup (sci.lang). It is thru such reconstructions (many of them even worse) the linguists provide ammunition to archaeologists and historians so that they can write and rewrite their favorite version of (pre)history. -- Sincerely, M. Hubey hubeyh@mail.montclair.edu http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey


(<< Back to top)

From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 23:13:43 GMT Organization: Yale University On Thu, 22 Jul 1999 11:51:19 -0400, "H.M.Hubey" wrote: > > >Cluster User wrote: > >> >experts from Altainet are required, you should join the list and >> >ask them. You can get a free email account from hotmail.com and join >> >the list. It is plainly not from Farsi. >> >> it entered turkish from arabic. this is a matter of record. > >YOu can look at a dictionary and say that a word is not there. That is >not proof that it did not exist in the language. The dictionary could >be bad. You can prove that a word exists in a language (if it is >in the dictionary) but you cannot prove that it is not (if it is >not in the dictionary)> > >Finally, you are ignoring the obvious. The word fits Turkic >etymology much better than what you claim, and thus is evidence of >prehistoric borrowing. That is what linguistic paleontology is about. >Apparently you are not paying attention to what goes on in this >newsgroup (sci.lang). It is thru such reconstructions (many of them >even worse) the linguists provide ammunition to archaeologists and >historians so that they can write and rewrite their favorite version >of (pre)history. good luck "rewriting". > >-- >Sincerely, >M. Hubey >hubeyh@mail.montclair.edu >http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey


(<< Back to top)

From: "H.M.Hubey" Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 22:55:54 -0400 Organization: Montclair State University Reply-To: Mark.Hubey@montclair.edu Cluster User wrote: > >even worse) the linguists provide ammunition to archaeologists and > >historians so that they can write and rewrite their favorite version > >of (pre)history. > > good luck "rewriting". It's a good thing that this is just a hobby. These dinosaurs are slow learners. I have some of these slow learners in some of my comp sci general ed courses, but at least I can flunk them :-) -- Sincerely, M. Hubey hubeyh@mail.montclair.edu http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey


(<< Back to top)

From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 23:12:43 GMT Organization: Yale University a final note about 'ibri:q the word is qur'anic: (appearing in the plural) 56:18 bi'akwa:bin wa'aba:ri:qa waka'sin min ma`i:n(in) with cups and jugs ('aba:ri:q) , and a glass from the flowing wine (al-hilali, muhsin khan translation) it was recognised as a loan from persian, from a:b ri:z, by classical lexicographers. see lane I p. 192.


(<< Back to top)

From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:37:36 GMT Organization: Yale University On Thu, 15 Jul 1999 22:32:08 -0700, Mike Wright wrote: >"H.M.Hubey" wrote: >> >> Andrew Comech wrote: >> > >> > Hi, >> > >> > I became interested in the name for a small long-handled >> > coffee pot for making Turkish coffee, and would like to find >> > out more. Here is what I learned so far: >> > >> > 1. cezve (jezve, gezve) -- Turkish? >> >> Neither Redhouse, nor Eren have anything to say. But cez means >> bronze in Karachay-Balkar (UFuk TAvkul). It could be from some >> other language; it is hard to tell. Oztopcu's Turkic language >> dictionary has nothing on bronze. > >Items 2, 3, and 4 all seem to be Arabic. My source is Hans Wehr's _A Dictionary >of Modern Written Arabic_. (All that's left of my Arabic is the ability to use a >dictionary.) There doesn't seem to be anything on the origin of any of them. > >> > 2. ibrik (another Turkish?) -> briki (also mpriki, biriki; Greek) >> > http://www.natashascafe.com/html/oldibrik.html >> >> Redhouse says it's ARabic. It probably is. > >"Ibriiq" - "pitcher, jug" > yes, in turkish it is of arabic origin; in arabic of persian origin - see stenigass persian - english under "ibri:q"


(<< Back to top)

From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 17:44:53 GMT Organization: Yale University On Thu, 15 Jul 1999 22:39:02 -0400, "H.M.Hubey" wrote: > > >Andrew Comech wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> I became interested in the name for a small long-handled >> coffee pot for making Turkish coffee, and would like to find >> out more. Here is what I learned so far: >> >> 1. cezve (jezve, gezve) -- Turkish? > >Neither Redhouse, nor Eren have anything to say. But cez means >bronze in Karachay-Balkar (UFuk TAvkul). It could be from some >other language; it is hard to tell. Oztopcu's Turkic language >dictionary has nothing on bronze. > what is a karachay-balkar (qypchaq turkic, north caucasus) word doing in turkish, with an ambigous suffix. for bronze in turkic see clauson "yez". but any form of the word is unattested in ottoman turkish


(<< Back to top)

From: "H.M.Hubey" Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 21:06:47 -0400 Organization: Montclair State University Reply-To: Mark.Hubey@montclair.edu Cluster User wrote: > > > what is a karachay-balkar (qypchaq turkic, north caucasus) word doing > in turkish, with an ambigous suffix. IF it was from Farsi, that could explain it easily. I don't know what language it is from. > for bronze in turkic see clauson "yez". but any form of the word is > unattested in ottoman turkish -- Sincerely, M. Hubey hubeyh@mail.montclair.edu http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey


(<< Back to top)

From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 18:06:03 GMT Organization: Yale University On Fri, 16 Jul 1999 21:06:47 -0400, "H.M.Hubey" wrote: > > >Cluster User wrote: >> >> >> what is a karachay-balkar (qypchaq turkic, north caucasus) word doing >> in turkish, with an ambigous suffix. > >IF it was from Farsi, that could explain it easily. I don't know what it isn't farsi. >language it is from. > >> for bronze in turkic see clauson "yez". but any form of the word is >> unattested in ottoman turkish > > >-- >Sincerely, >M. Hubey >hubeyh@mail.montclair.edu >http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey


(<< Back to top)

From: leila_sab@my-deja.com (Leila A.) Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 06:12:50 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises finger@math.sunysb.edu (Andrew Comech) wrote: > >Hi, > >I became interested in the name for a small long-handled >coffee pot for making Turkish coffee, and would like to find >out more. Here is what I learned so far: snip words for coffeepots etc. in Turkish >Andrew > > >PS. Here is some email which I received some time ago: > >: >How do you [Greeks] call this tiny pot for making REAL COFFEE? >: >I guess I should not write "Turkish" -- well, GREEK COFFEE? > >: Well... We call it GREEK COFFEE, but it is TURKISH COFFEE in reality. >: Informatively, one Greek folklorist (Ilias Petropoulos) wrote a book titled: >: O TOYRKIKOS KAFES EN ELLADI = The Turkish coffee in Greece. > Here's a word from an Arab on this one. The Arabs found the coffee tree growing wherever it was growing (I did my research on this about 12 years ago) - East Africa I am pretty sure - and invented coffee. The word for coffee in Arabic is "qahwah". Remember that the Turks of the Ottoman Empire ruled the Arab world from the 14th or 13th century of the common era until the end of World War I. Turks cannot pronounce that 'q', and they tend to pronounce a "w" as a "v". Qahwah thus became kahveh. This became café or caffé in various European languages, eventually becoming Coffee in English. The Turks got "Turkish" coffee from the Arabs. When I make this coffee, I usually call it Arabic coffee (and then say "Turkish" so Westerners know what I mean.) Since my grandfather fought the Turks on the barricades outside of Sidon, Lebanon, at the fall of the Ottoman empire (1918), I feel it's my post-colonialist duty to call this coffee by the name of its inventors, not its conquerors! Regards, Leila A. TO REPLY: my friends should e-mail me using leilasab with a domain of yahoo spammers have figured out my other spoiler dont forget the dot com


(<< Back to top)

From: "mb" Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: 15 Jul 1999 23:49:32 PDT Organization: Concentric Internet Services Leila A. wrote in article > finger@math.sunysb.edu (Andrew Comech) wrote: > >: Well... We call it GREEK COFFEE, but it is TURKISH COFFEE in reality. ... > coffee, I usually call it Arabic coffee (and then say "Turkish" so > Westerners know what I mean.) Some more trivia: It started being called "Greek coffee" after the 1955 pogrom against Greeks in Constantinople. So people over 50 still call it "tourkikos". Turkish (and Greek?) coffee is definitely different from the one brewed south of Urfa. It's roasted less, ground finer, boiled less (pull out as soon as it starts to boil) and never includes other flavors like cardamom etc. So let's not confuse it with Arabic coffee. Also, popular (non-TV, non-school) Greek currently uses the word "dzezves" or "dzozves"(Northern Islands) -shunned by officialdom (who perhaps believes that mpriki is of Greek origin?). Other important implements: Stakhtokouti. Bronze container, approx. 3' x 2' x 2', with a lower level for charcoal under abundant ashes, upon which you can place up to 3 brikia, and an upper compartment for heating water. Still in use in the "real" Greek coffee-house. Tepsi (T) /tapsi - diskos (G): circular tray hanging from 3 or 4 arches. The good waiter swings it without spilling.


(<< Back to top)

From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 15:26:36 GMT Organization: Yale University On 15 Jul 1999 23:49:32 PDT, "mb" wrote: > > >Leila A. wrote in article >> finger@math.sunysb.edu (Andrew Comech) wrote: >> >: Well... We call it GREEK COFFEE, but it is TURKISH COFFEE in reality. >... >> coffee, I usually call it Arabic coffee (and then say "Turkish" so >> Westerners know what I mean.) > >Some more trivia: It started being called "Greek coffee" after the 1955 >pogrom against Greeks in Constantinople. So people over 50 still call it >"tourkikos". > >Turkish (and Greek?) coffee is definitely different from the one brewed >south of Urfa. It's roasted less, ground finer, boiled less (pull out as >soon as it starts to boil) and never includes other flavors like cardamom >etc. So let's not confuse it with Arabic coffee. agreed. I have also encountered turkish coffee vs. arabic coffee (as decribed above) usage in lebanon. coffee is native to yemen and eritriea, ethiopia (the first was an ottoman provenice, the second a dependent). it was turned into drink during ottoman times and popularized in istanbul. > >Also, popular (non-TV, non-school) Greek currently uses the word "dzezves" >or "dzozves"(Northern Islands) -shunned by officialdom (who perhaps >believes that mpriki is of Greek origin?). > >Other important implements: Stakhtokouti. Bronze container, approx. 3' x 2' >x 2', with a lower level for charcoal under abundant ashes, upon which you >can place up to 3 brikia, and an upper compartment for heating water. Still >in use in the "real" Greek coffee-house. Tepsi (T) /tapsi - diskos (G): >circular tray hanging from 3 or 4 arches. The good waiter swings it without >spilling. >


(<< Back to top)

From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 19:20:27 GMT Organization: Yale University On Fri, 16 Jul 1999 15:26:36 GMT, cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) wrote: >On 15 Jul 1999 23:49:32 PDT, "mb" wrote: > >> >> >>Leila A. wrote in article >>> finger@math.sunysb.edu (Andrew Comech) wrote: >>> >: Well... We call it GREEK COFFEE, but it is TURKISH COFFEE in reality. >>... >>> coffee, I usually call it Arabic coffee (and then say "Turkish" so >>> Westerners know what I mean.) >> >>Some more trivia: It started being called "Greek coffee" after the 1955 >>pogrom against Greeks in Constantinople. So people over 50 still call it >>"tourkikos". >> >>Turkish (and Greek?) coffee is definitely different from the one brewed >>south of Urfa. It's roasted less, ground finer, boiled less (pull out as >>soon as it starts to boil) and never includes other flavors like cardamom >>etc. So let's not confuse it with Arabic coffee. > >agreed. I have also encountered turkish coffee vs. arabic coffee (as >decribed above) usage in lebanon. > >coffee is native to yemen and eritriea, ethiopia (the first was an apparently it was imported into yemen as it became a drink there. it's native to ethiopia / eritrea. >ottoman provenice, the second a dependent). it was turned into drink >during ottoman times and popularized in istanbul. yes. it did become widespread during ottoman times. apparently it was made into a drink a little earlier in yemen, mostly in sufi circles. > >> >>Also, popular (non-TV, non-school) Greek currently uses the word "dzezves" >>or "dzozves"(Northern Islands) -shunned by officialdom (who perhaps >>believes that mpriki is of Greek origin?). >> >>Other important implements: Stakhtokouti. Bronze container, approx. 3' x 2' >>x 2', with a lower level for charcoal under abundant ashes, upon which you >>can place up to 3 brikia, and an upper compartment for heating water. Still >>in use in the "real" Greek coffee-house. Tepsi (T) /tapsi - diskos (G): >>circular tray hanging from 3 or 4 arches. The good waiter swings it without >>spilling. >> >


(<< Back to top)

From: leila_sab@my-deja.com (Leila A.) Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 10:30:22 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) wrote: >On Fri, 16 Jul 1999 15:26:36 GMT, cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) >wrote: > >>On 15 Jul 1999 23:49:32 PDT, "mb" wrote: >> >>> >>> >>>Leila A. wrote in article >>>> finger@math.sunysb.edu (Andrew Comech) wrote: >>>> >: Well... We call it GREEK COFFEE, but it is TURKISH COFFEE in reality. >>>... >>>> coffee, I usually call it Arabic coffee (and then say "Turkish" so >>>> Westerners know what I mean.) >>> >>>Some more trivia: It started being called "Greek coffee" after the 1955 >>>pogrom against Greeks in Constantinople. So people over 50 still call it >>>"tourkikos". >>> >>>Turkish (and Greek?) coffee is definitely different from the one brewed >>>south of Urfa. It's roasted less, ground finer, boiled less (pull out as >>>soon as it starts to boil) and never includes other flavors like cardamom >>>etc. So let's not confuse it with Arabic coffee. In Cairo 15 years ago when you went to a traditional coffee roaster, tehy would ask you what color you wanted: light brown, dark brown and black. I was told that the Greeks liked the light brown (there were still a few ancient Greek pension owners left in Egypt in those days). >> >>agreed. I have also encountered turkish coffee vs. arabic coffee (as >>decribed above) usage in lebanon. >> >>coffee is native to yemen and eritriea, ethiopia (the first was an > >apparently it was imported into yemen as it became a drink there. >it's native to ethiopia / eritrea. >>ottoman provenice, the second a dependent). it was turned into drink >>during ottoman times and popularized in istanbul. > I believe that the snipsbelow, saying it was turned into a drink in Yemen, prove that the Arabs brought it to the Turks. Yemenis are Arabs... > >yes. it did become widespread during ottoman times. apparently it was >made into a drink a little earlier in yemen, mostly in sufi circles. Regards, Leila A. TO REPLY: my friends should e-mail me using leilasab with a domain of yahoo spammers have figured out my other spoiler dont forget the dot com


(<< Back to top)

From: "Saabirah" Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 08:10:56 -0400 Organization: Stargate Industries, LLC. Leila A. wrote in message <37905aba.3259167@news.mindspring.com>... >cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) wrote: > >>On Fri, 16 Jul 1999 15:26:36 GMT, cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) >>wrote: >> >>>On 15 Jul 1999 23:49:32 PDT, "mb" wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Leila A. wrote in article >>>>> finger@math.sunysb.edu (Andrew Comech) wrote: >In Cairo 15 years ago when you went to a traditional coffee roaster, >tehy would ask you what color you wanted: light brown, dark brown and >black. I was told that the Greeks liked the light brown (there were >still a few ancient Greek pension owners left in Egypt in those days). And, even these days in the souq in al-Quds, when you ask for coffee you are given the same choice. I prefer a mixture of black and brown.... with a good handful of cardomon (?) seeds ground in with it of course. Saabirah


(<< Back to top)

From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 17:42:26 GMT Organization: Yale University On Sat, 17 Jul 1999 08:10:56 -0400, "Saabirah" wrote: > >Leila A. wrote in message <37905aba.3259167@news.mindspring.com>... >>cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) wrote: >> >>>On Fri, 16 Jul 1999 15:26:36 GMT, cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) >>>wrote: >>> >>>>On 15 Jul 1999 23:49:32 PDT, "mb" wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Leila A. wrote in article >>>>>> finger@math.sunysb.edu (Andrew Comech) wrote: > >>In Cairo 15 years ago when you went to a traditional coffee roaster, >>tehy would ask you what color you wanted: light brown, dark brown and >>black. I was told that the Greeks liked the light brown (there were >>still a few ancient Greek pension owners left in Egypt in those days). > >And, even these days in the souq in al-Quds, when you ask for coffee you are >given the same choice. I prefer a mixture of black and brown.... with a >good handful of cardomon (?) seeds ground in with it of course. > making it good "arab coffee". >Saabirah > > >


(<< Back to top)

From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 17:41:56 GMT Organization: Yale University On Sat, 17 Jul 1999 10:30:22 GMT, leila_sab@my-deja.com (Leila A.) wrote: >>>coffee is native to yemen and eritriea, ethiopia (the first was an >> >>apparently it was imported into yemen as it became a drink there. >>it's native to ethiopia / eritrea. >>>ottoman provenice, the second a dependent). it was turned into drink >>>during ottoman times and popularized in istanbul. >> >I believe that the snipsbelow, saying it was turned into a drink in >Yemen, prove that the Arabs brought it to the Turks. Yemenis are >Arabs... precisely. >> >>yes. it did become widespread during ottoman times. apparently it was >>made into a drink a little earlier in yemen, mostly in sufi circles. > >Regards, > >Leila A. > >TO REPLY: >my friends should e-mail me using >leilasab >with a domain of yahoo >spammers have figured out my other spoiler >dont forget the dot com


(<< Back to top)

From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 19:27:21 GMT Organization: Yale University tisinli@aol.com wrote: >>"H.M.Hubey" >>Date: Thu, 15 July 1999 10:39 PM EDT >>Message-id: <378E9B46.B45CE828@mail.montclair.edu> >> >> >> >>Andrew Comech wrote: >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> I became interested in the name for a small long-handled >>> coffee pot for making Turkish coffee, and would like to find >>> out more. Here is what I learned so far: >>> >>> 1. cezve (jezve, gezve) -- Turkish? >> >>Neither Redhouse, nor Eren have anything to say. >>But cez means bronze in Karachay-Balkar (UFuk TAvkul). >In the Turkish dialect spoken in Northern Iraq, "céz" >means a pile of grains, like wheat (while still in the field), >and the word for brass is "yéz". This last one is also >used for "fake gold." doesn't explain the suffix, besides it not being attested in ottoman turkish. also wrong milieu for the name to develop there. as I said before, ottoman turks definitley felt it came from arabic, as shown by the prefered spelling (see sami). >[.......] >I wonder what the etymology of the Arabic words >"qahwa" and "bunn" are, and whether this last one has qahwa(t) was an old arabic word for "wine". it may have developed into "coffee" because "kaffa" in abysinia wasw where coffee was first exported to yemen. bunn is from ethiopic bu:n for the tree, bean and drink. >anything to do with the English word "bean"? no. bean is old germanic and may have cogantes in latin and slavic, according to the oxford english dictioanry. >>Sincerely, >>M. Hubey >>hubeyh@mail.montclair.edu >>http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey >Tisinli


(<< Back to top)

From: tisinli@aol.com (Tisinli) Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: 17 Jul 1999 09:07:35 GMT cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) wrote >tisinli@aol.com wrote: >>>"H.M.Hubey" >>>Date: Thu, 15 July 1999 10:39 PM EDT >>>Message-id: <378E9B46.B45CE828@mail.montclair.edu> >>>Andrew Comech wrote: >>>> Hi, >>>> I became interested in the name for a small long-handled >>>> coffee pot for making Turkish coffee, and would like to find >>>> out more. Here is what I learned so far: >>>> >>>> 1. cezve (jezve, gezve) -- Turkish? >>> >>>Neither Redhouse, nor Eren have anything to say. >>>But cez means bronze in Karachay-Balkar (UFuk TAvkul). >>In the Turkish dialect spoken in Northern Iraq, "céz" >>means a pile of grains, like wheat (while still in the field), >>and the word for brass is "yéz". This last one is also >>used for "fake gold." >doesn't explain the suffix, besides it not being attested in ottoman >turkish. also wrong milieu for the name to develop there. I did not clame that "cezve" is of Turkish/Turkic origin. I was merely commenting on the words mentioned by Hubey. >as I said before, ottoman turks definitley felt it came from arabic, >as shown by the prefered spelling (see sami). I have no problem with that, whatsoever. >>[.......] >>I wonder what the etymology of the Arabic words >>"qahwa" and "bunn" are, and whether this last one has >qahwa(t) was an old arabic word for "wine". it may have >developed into "coffee" because "kaffa" in abysinia wasw >where coffee was first exported to yemen. It is very difficult for me to confuse between wine and coffee, and would prefere "kaffa" > xxx > "kahve". It looks like that "coffe" (and caffine) is more from "kaffa" than "qahwa"/"kahve". >bunn is from ethiopic bu:n for the tree, bean and drink. >>anything to do with the English word "bean"? >no. bean is old germanic and may have cogantes in >latin and slavic, according to the oxford english dictioanry. I would urge the linguists who deal with linguistic superfamilies to keep an open mind about some sort of relation between the two words. Linguists should start relying on spoken languages in addition to the printed books an dictionaries. I do not beleive that every Turkish/Turkic word is documented. There is a welth of knowlwge there, where the dictionary compileres did not include in their dictionaries for one reason or another. >>>Sincerely, >>>M. Hubey >>>hubeyh@mail.montclair.edu >>>http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey > > >>Tisinli


(<< Back to top)

From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 17:40:56 GMT Organization: Yale University On 17 Jul 1999 09:07:35 GMT, tisinli@aol.com (Tisinli) wrote: (tisinli: include sci.lang if you want a wider response) >cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) wrote > >>tisinli@aol.com wrote: > >>>>"H.M.Hubey" >>>>Date: Thu, 15 July 1999 10:39 PM EDT >>>>Message-id: <378E9B46.B45CE828@mail.montclair.edu> > >>>>Andrew Comech wrote: > >>>>> Hi, >>>>> I became interested in the name for a small long-handled >>>>> coffee pot for making Turkish coffee, and would like to find >>>>> out more. Here is what I learned so far: >>>>> >>>>> 1. cezve (jezve, gezve) -- Turkish? >>>> >>>>Neither Redhouse, nor Eren have anything to say. >>>>But cez means bronze in Karachay-Balkar (UFuk TAvkul). > >>>In the Turkish dialect spoken in Northern Iraq, "céz" >>>means a pile of grains, like wheat (while still in the field), >>>and the word for brass is "yéz". This last one is also >>>used for "fake gold." > >>doesn't explain the suffix, besides it not being attested in ottoman >>turkish. also wrong milieu for the name to develop there. > >I did not clame that "cezve" is of Turkish/Turkic origin. >I was merely commenting on the words mentioned by Hubey. > >>as I said before, ottoman turks definitley felt it came from arabic, >>as shown by the prefered spelling (see sami). > >I have no problem with that, whatsoever. > >>>[.......] > >>>I wonder what the etymology of the Arabic words >>>"qahwa" and "bunn" are, and whether this last one has > >>qahwa(t) was an old arabic word for "wine". it may have >>developed into "coffee" because "kaffa" in abysinia wasw >>where coffee was first exported to yemen. > >It is very difficult for me to confuse between wine and coffee, and would >prefere "kaffa" > xxx > "kahve". It looks like that "coffe" (and caffine) is >more from "kaffa" than "qahwa"/"kahve". > that is not suggested by the turkish pronounciation (ottoamn turks would have no problems with kaffa) nor the ottoman spelling. europeans certainly learned coffee drinking form turks, and cafe, coffee would be approximations of turkish kahve, where the v is weakly voiced, thus sounding to untrained ears as an "f". early arab records show no evidence of coffee drinking, yet "qahwa" is used in the sense of a certain wine. the best guess is that this was transfered over to the new drink under the influence of the ethiopian placename. >>bunn is from ethiopic bu:n for the tree, bean and drink. > >>>anything to do with the English word "bean"? > >>no. bean is old germanic and may have cogantes in >>latin and slavic, according to the oxford english dictioanry. > >I would urge the linguists who deal with linguistic superfamilies >to keep an open mind about some sort of relation between the >two words. it's not exlusively the bean (properly a berry) that the ethiopic word refers to. > >Linguists should start relying on spoken languages in addition they do when available. for older languages and forms, there was no other recording device and "dead people make poor informants" >to the printed books an dictionaries. I do not beleive that every >Turkish/Turkic word is documented. There is a welth of knowlwge there, where >the dictionary compileres did not include in their dictionaries for one reason >or another. these coffee terms used in turkish were based upon the 16th - 17th century istanbul speech, the modern variety of which forms the basis of the standard language and is well recorded throughout its history. > >>>>Sincerely, >>>>M. Hubey >>>>hubeyh@mail.montclair.edu >>>>http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey >> >> >>>Tisinli >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >


(<< Back to top)

From: konstant@let.rug.nl (Konstantopoulos S.) Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: 17 Jul 1999 13:00:47 GMT Organization: University of Groningen, Faculty of Arts mb (mb@co.net) wrote: > Some more trivia: It started being called "Greek coffee" after the 1955 > pogrom against Greeks in Constantinople. So people over 50 still call it > "tourkikos". the story i've heard places the transition at the time of the turkish invasion of cyprus (74). > Also, popular (non-TV, non-school) Greek currently uses the word "dzezves" > or "dzozves"(Northern Islands) -shunned by officialdom (who perhaps > believes that mpriki is of Greek origin?). i've never heard this word in my life. where in greece did you hear it? stasinos


(<< Back to top)

From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 15:37:30 GMT Organization: Yale University On Fri, 16 Jul 1999 06:12:50 GMT, leila_sab@my-deja.com (Leila A.) wrote: >finger@math.sunysb.edu (Andrew Comech) wrote: > >> >>Hi, >> >>I became interested in the name for a small long-handled >>coffee pot for making Turkish coffee, and would like to find >>out more. Here is what I learned so far: > >snip words for coffeepots etc. in Turkish > >>Andrew >> >> >>PS. Here is some email which I received some time ago: >> >>: >How do you [Greeks] call this tiny pot for making REAL COFFEE? >>: >I guess I should not write "Turkish" -- well, GREEK COFFEE? >> >>: Well... We call it GREEK COFFEE, but it is TURKISH COFFEE in reality. >>: Informatively, one Greek folklorist (Ilias Petropoulos) wrote a book titled: >>: O TOYRKIKOS KAFES EN ELLADI = The Turkish coffee in Greece. >> > >Here's a word from an Arab on this one. The Arabs found the coffee >tree growing wherever it was growing (I did my research on this about >12 years ago) - East Africa I am pretty sure - and invented coffee. >The word for coffee in Arabic is "qahwah". Remember that the Turks of it's an arabic word (perhaps of ethiopic origin), spread to europe via turkish. >the Ottoman Empire ruled the Arab world from the 14th or 13th century I think the more genteel turkified or turkish elite stopped chewing the seeds and watered them down to a drink,. the europeans watered it down even more! >of the common era until the end of World War I. Turks cannot pronounce >that 'q', and they tend to pronounce a "w" as a "v". Qahwah thus it's found or some sort of distinction is made, but not in writing. q sound is not found, or rare, in europe. >became kahveh. This became café or caffé in various European >languages, eventually becoming Coffee in English. > >The Turks got "Turkish" coffee from the Arabs. When I make this >coffee, I usually call it Arabic coffee (and then say "Turkish" so >Westerners know what I mean.) > >Since my grandfather fought the Turks on the barricades outside of >Sidon, Lebanon, at the fall of the Ottoman empire (1918), I feel it's >my post-colonialist duty to call this coffee by the name of its >inventors, not its conquerors! > > >Regards, > >Leila A. > >TO REPLY: >my friends should e-mail me using >leilasab >with a domain of yahoo >spammers have figured out my other spoiler >dont forget the dot com


(<< Back to top)

From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 19:17:54 GMT Organization: Yale University On Fri, 16 Jul 1999 15:37:30 GMT, cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) wrote: >On Fri, 16 Jul 1999 06:12:50 GMT, leila_sab@my-deja.com (Leila A.) >wrote: > >>finger@math.sunysb.edu (Andrew Comech) wrote: >> >>> >>>Hi, >>> >>>I became interested in the name for a small long-handled >>>coffee pot for making Turkish coffee, and would like to find >>>out more. Here is what I learned so far: >> >>snip words for coffeepots etc. in Turkish >> >>>Andrew >>> >>> >>>PS. Here is some email which I received some time ago: >>> >>>: >How do you [Greeks] call this tiny pot for making REAL COFFEE? >>>: >I guess I should not write "Turkish" -- well, GREEK COFFEE? >>> >>>: Well... We call it GREEK COFFEE, but it is TURKISH COFFEE in reality. >>>: Informatively, one Greek folklorist (Ilias Petropoulos) wrote a book titled: >>>: O TOYRKIKOS KAFES EN ELLADI = The Turkish coffee in Greece. >>> >> >>Here's a word from an Arab on this one. The Arabs found the coffee >>tree growing wherever it was growing (I did my research on this about >>12 years ago) - East Africa I am pretty sure - and invented coffee. >>The word for coffee in Arabic is "qahwah". Remember that the Turks of > >it's an arabic word (perhaps of ethiopic origin), spread to europe via >turkish. > >>the Ottoman Empire ruled the Arab world from the 14th or 13th century > >I think the more genteel turkified or turkish elite stopped chewing >the seeds and watered them down to a drink,. the europeans watered it >down even more! not quite. see next post. > >>of the common era until the end of World War I. Turks cannot pronounce >>that 'q', and they tend to pronounce a "w" as a "v". Qahwah thus > >it's found or some sort of distinction is made, but not in writing. q >sound is not found, or rare, in europe. > >>became kahveh. This became café or caffé in various European >>languages, eventually becoming Coffee in English. >> >>The Turks got "Turkish" coffee from the Arabs. When I make this >>coffee, I usually call it Arabic coffee (and then say "Turkish" so >>Westerners know what I mean.) >> >>Since my grandfather fought the Turks on the barricades outside of >>Sidon, Lebanon, at the fall of the Ottoman empire (1918), I feel it's >>my post-colonialist duty to call this coffee by the name of its >>inventors, not its conquerors! >> >> >>Regards, >> >>Leila A. >> >>TO REPLY: >>my friends should e-mail me using >>leilasab >>with a domain of yahoo >>spammers have figured out my other spoiler >>dont forget the dot com >


(<< Back to top)

From: P&D Schultz Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 22:07:48 -0400 Leila A. wrote: > Here's a word from an Arab on this one. The Arabs found the coffee > tree growing wherever it was growing (I did my research on this about > 12 years ago) - East Africa I am pretty sure - and invented coffee. > The word for coffee in Arabic is "qahwah". <...> The furthest back the word can be traced is to Arabic, but what evidence is there that the Arabs "invented coffee?" It seems more likely that the natives served the visiting Arabs coffee, and when they asked about it, the natives explained how they made it, showed them the plant, and told them what it was called. And "qahwah" was as close to the native name (whatever it was) as the Arabs could pronounce. And if that is the case, saying the Arabs invented coffee is like saying the Spanish invented chocolate, or the English invented tea. Incidentally, the word "tobacco" is possibly of Arabic origin too. But the Arabs didn't invent tobacco. //P. Schultz


(<< Back to top)

From: leila_sab@my-deja.com (Leila A.) Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 10:33:09 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises P&D Schultz wrote: >Leila A. wrote: > >> Here's a word from an Arab on this one. The Arabs found the coffee >> tree growing wherever it was growing (I did my research on this about >> 12 years ago) - East Africa I am pretty sure - and invented coffee. >> The word for coffee in Arabic is "qahwah". <...> > >The furthest back the word can be traced is to Arabic, but what evidence is there >that the Arabs "invented coffee?" It seems more likely that the natives served the >visiting Arabs coffee, and when they asked about it, the natives explained how they Actually, you have a point there. My research was done a dozen years ago, and being an Arab, I naturally stopped when I found citations saying that the ARabs invented it. >made it, showed them the plant, and told them what it was called. And "qahwah" was >as close to the native name (whatever it was) as the Arabs could pronounce. And if >that is the case, saying the Arabs invented coffee is like saying the Spanish >invented chocolate, or the English invented tea. > >Incidentally, the word "tobacco" is possibly of Arabic origin too. But the Arabs >didn't invent tobacco. > >//P. Schultz > Regards, Leila A. TO REPLY: my friends should e-mail me using leilasab with a domain of yahoo spammers have figured out my other spoiler dont forget the dot com


(<< Back to top)

From: bonnie6807@my-deja.com Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 01:16:41 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Share what you know. Learn what you don't. In article <37905bab.3500572@news.mindspring.com>, leila_sab@my-deja.com (Leila A.) wrote: > P&D Schultz wrote: > > >Leila A. wrote: > > > >> Here's a word from an Arab on this one. The Arabs found the coffee > >> tree growing wherever it was growing (I did my research on this about > >> 12 years ago) - East Africa I am pretty sure - and invented coffee. > >> The word for coffee in Arabic is "qahwah". <...Actually in the information that I have seen is that in Europe coffee was first called Arabian Wine.> > > > >The furthest back the word can be traced is to Arabic, but what evidence is there > >that the Arabs "invented coffee?" It seems more likely that the natives served the > >visiting Arabs coffee, and when they asked about it, the natives explained how they > > Actually, you have a point there. My research was done a dozen years > ago, and being an Arab, I naturally stopped when I found citations > saying that the ARabs invented it. > > >made it, showed them the plant, and told them what it was called. And "qahwah" was > >as close to the native name (whatever it was) as the Arabs could pronounce. And if > >that is the case, saying the Arabs invented coffee is like saying the Spanish > >invented chocolate, or the English invented tea. > > > >Incidentally, the word "tobacco" is possibly of Arabic origin too. But the Arabs > >didn't invent tobacco. > > > >//P. Schultz > > > > Regards, > > Leila A. > > TO REPLY: > my friends should e-mail me using > leilasab > with a domain of yahoo > spammers have figured out my other spoiler > dont forget the dot com > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.


(<< Back to top)

From: "Philip 'Yes, that's my address' Newton" Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:49:56 +0200 Organization: Datenrevision GmbH, a Hummingbird Company > : We call it MPRIKI (we pronounce the English B as MP : Greek letters > : Mu Pi). It is etymologized from the Turkish "ibrik", as you write. I think he means, roughly, "we spell mp (mu-pi) and pronounce it more or less like English B". I heard it pronounced briki when I was in Greece. Cheers, Philip


(<< Back to top)

From: konstant@let.rug.nl (Konstantopoulos S.) Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: 17 Jul 1999 13:05:48 GMT Organization: University of Groningen, Faculty of Arts Philip 'Yes, that's my address' Newton (nospam.newton@gmx.net) wrote: > > : We call it MPRIKI (we pronounce the English B as MP : Greek letters > > : Mu Pi). It is etymologized from the Turkish "ibrik", as you write. > I think he means, roughly, "we spell mp (mu-pi) and pronounce it more or > less like English B". I heard it pronounced briki when I was in Greece. > Cheers, > Philip you 're right. pronounce both i's like the 'ee' in 'greek'. stasinos


(<< Back to top)

From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 19:28:44 GMT Organization: Yale University On 15 Jul 1999 15:37:08 -0500, finger@math.sunysb.edu (Andrew Comech) wrote: > >Hi, > >I became interested in the name for a small long-handled >coffee pot for making Turkish coffee, and would like to find >out more. Here is what I learned so far: > see enc. of islam II "Kahwa"


(<< Back to top)

From: i840coffee@aol.com (I840COFFEE) Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: 17 Jul 1999 05:48:02 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Gentlemen, Please accept my thanks for a most fascinating educational thread of posts on the origin of the words and culture of Middle Eastern (yes, I will hide behind Ken Davids' skirts on this one) coffee. I am much abliged to each of the contributors. -i840


(<< Back to top)

From: iscohen@actcom.co.il (Isadora S Cohen) Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 17:13:01 +0200 Organization: ACTCOM - Internet Services 1-800-300123 info@actcom.co.il Andrew Comech wrote: > Hi, > > > 2. ibrik (another Turkish?) -> briki (also mpriki, biriki; Greek) > http://www.natashascafe.com/html/oldibrik.html That's the one used in Romanian. Yes, it is of Turkish Origin AFAIK Haven't seen [finjan] on your list, nor in any of the subsequent posts (but I may have missed it). Arabic, to the best of my knowledge -- of the Palestinian variety, most likely, as this is the word used here in Israel. -I.


(<< Back to top)

From: P&D Schultz Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 12:32:18 -0400 Isadora S Cohen wrote: > Haven't seen [finjan] on your list, nor in any of the subsequent posts > (but I may have missed it). Arabic, to the best of my knowledge -- of > the Palestinian variety, most likely, as this is the word used here in > Israel. It's also in Turkish, Greek ("flitzani"), and, I think, Serbo-Croatian. Egyptians call it a "fingal." It is listed as an English word in the old OED, spelled fingan and finjan, meaning "a small porcelain cup used in the Levant." It has a lot of letters to be originally Arabic. I bet the Arabs got it from the Turks or Persians. //P. Schultz


(<< Back to top)

From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 18:18:25 GMT Organization: Yale University On Sat, 17 Jul 1999 12:32:18 -0400, P&D Schultz wrote: >Isadora S Cohen wrote: > >> Haven't seen [finjan] on your list, nor in any of the subsequent posts >> (but I may have missed it). Arabic, to the best of my knowledge -- of >> the Palestinian variety, most likely, as this is the word used here in >> Israel. > >It's also in Turkish, Greek ("flitzani"), and, I think, Serbo-Croatian. >Egyptians call it a "fingal." It is listed as an English word in the old >OED, spelled fingan and finjan, meaning "a small porcelain cup used in the >Levant." It has a lot of letters to be originally Arabic. I bet the Arabs >got it from the Turks or Persians. originally persian. turk < `ar. < pers. pinga:n > >//P. Schultz >


(<< Back to top)

From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 18:14:16 GMT Organization: Yale University On 18 Jul 1999 07:33:15 GMT, tisinli@aol.com (Tisinli) wrote: >cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) > >>On Sat, 17 Jul 1999 12:32:18 -0400, P&D Schultz >>wrote: >> >>>Isadora S Cohen wrote: >>> >>>> Haven't seen [finjan] on your list, nor in any of the subsequent posts >>>> (but I may have missed it). Arabic, to the best of my knowledge -- of >>>> the Palestinian variety, most likely, as this is the word used here in >>>> Israel. >>> >>>It's also in Turkish, Greek ("flitzani"), and, I think, Serbo-Croatian. >>>Egyptians call it a "fingal." It is listed as an English word in the old >>>OED, spelled fingan and finjan, meaning "a small porcelain cup used in the >>>Levant." It has a lot of letters to be originally Arabic. I bet the Arabs >>>got it from the Turks or Persians. >> >>originally persian. >> >>turk < `ar. < pers. pinga:n > >Is the "-a:n" part of the word the persian plural suffix? > >In some Turkmen villages of northern Iraq, there used to be something which >resembles this coffee cup, however, used upside down, made of sun dried mud and >straw with many small holes all over its walls, and is about 2.5 feet wide at >its rim, but used for quite a different purpose: keeping newly hatched chicks >from beeing prayed upon by cats during the nights and it is called "pin." I >don't have the slightest idea about it's origin or etymology. probably from pinga:n. > >However, if there was a verb in Turkic like pin- or pinge- (a sound ?), then it this sound is only heard to turkish ears?! >would be very easy to give the word "finjan" (or pingen) a Turkic etymology. no. in arabic the word seems to have come into the langaueg prior to turkish settlement in and around arab lands. > >Tisinli > >>>//P. Schultz > >


(<< Back to top)

From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 19:08:30 GMT Organization: Yale University On 19 Jul 1999 06:12:20 GMT, tisinli@aol.com (Tisinli) wrote: >cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) >> >>On 18 Jul 1999 07:33:15 GMT, tisinli@aol.com (Tisinli) wrote: >> >>>cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) >>> >>>>On Sat, 17 Jul 1999 12:32:18 -0400, P&D Schultz >>>>wrote: >>>> >>>>>Isadora S Cohen wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Haven't seen [finjan] on your list, nor in any of the subsequent posts >>>>>> (but I may have missed it). Arabic, to the best of my knowledge -- of >>>>>> the Palestinian variety, most likely, as this is the word used here in >>>>>> Israel. >>>>> >>>>>It's also in Turkish, Greek ("flitzani"), and, I think, Serbo-Croatian. >>>>>Egyptians call it a "fingal." It is listed as an English word in the old >>>>>OED, spelled fingan and finjan, meaning "a small porcelain cup used in the >>>>>Levant." It has a lot of letters to be originally Arabic. I bet the Arabs >>>>>got it from the Turks or Persians. >>>> >>>>originally persian. >>>> >>>>turk < `ar. < pers. pinga:n >>> >>>Is the "-a:n" part of the word the persian plural suffix? >>> >>>In some Turkmen villages of northern Iraq, there used to be something which >>>resembles this coffee cup, however, used upside down, made of sun dried mud >>and >>>straw with many small holes all over its walls, and is about 2.5 feet wide >>at >>>its rim, but used for quite a different purpose: keeping newly hatched >>chicks >>>from beeing prayed upon by cats during the nights and it is called "pin." I >>>don't have the slightest idea about it's origin or etymology. >> >>probably from pinga:n. >> > >I dout you know what "pinga:n" means, leave alone deriving "pin" from it. pinga:n means finjan. as for its origin in persian, it comes from greek - see the post by nikos sarantakos. > >>>However, if there was a verb in Turkic like pin- or pinge- (a sound ?), then >>it >> >>this sound is only heard to turkish ears?! >> >You always see a foregin root for every Turkish word you can lay your hands on. there is no evidence that the dialect words you give are old turkic, let alone the basis for the persian or arabic words in question. > To be credible you need to give a meaning for your foregin roots. Because it >is listed in a dictionary and claimed to be so and so, it does not follow that >the writer of that dictionary is the best person to judge that. Anything said well, steingass (persian - english) and doerfer are at least among the best people in that field. read their works, and you will find many genuine turkic words as loans in persian. the words in question just don't happen to be amonmg them. >by anyone can always be open for debate. You underestimate your audiance, most >of the time. I gave you the reasons why turkic is excluded. > >>>would be very easy to give the word "finjan" (or pingen) a Turkic etymology. >> >>no. in arabic the word seems to have come into the langaueg prior to >>turkish settlement in and around arab lands. >> > >And when was that supposed to be? just looking at the arabic spelling, they were adopted in arabic before the use arabic script by persians. > > >>>Tisinli >>> >>>>>//P. Schultz >>>


(<< Back to top)

From: "Murat Kalinyaprak" Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 02:39:11 -0600 Organization: in-tch Cluster User wrote 37921925.1374710348@news.yale.edu... >On 18 Jul 1999 07:33:15 GMT, tisinli@aol.com (Tisinli) wrote: >>In some Turkmen villages of northern Iraq, there used to be >>something which resembles this coffee cup, however, used >>upside down, made of sun dried mud and straw with many small >>holes all over its walls, and is about 2.5 feet wide at its >>rim, but used for quite a different purpose: keeping newly >>hatched chicks from beeing prayed upon by cats during the >>nights and it is called "pin." I don't have the slightest >>idea about it's origin or etymology. >probably from pinga:n. Heh, heh... Of Course, but why just probably...? Why not certainly...? >>However, if there was a verb in Turkic like pin- or pinge- >>(a sound ?), then it would be very easy to give the word >>"finjan" (or pingen) a Turkic etymology. >no. in arabic the word seems to have come into the langaueg >prior to turkish settlement in and around arab lands. So what...? I'm sure you will be willing to apply this requirement from now on regarding words borrowed into Turkish from other languages also, right...? For example, no Arabic word could have been borrowed into Turkish until Arab settlements in and around Turkish lands...? Anyway, enough time wasted with you; back to Tisinli's question. There is the verb "pineklemek" in Turkish, which means "sitting around lazily, in a half-asleep state" ("uyuklar gibi oturmak") and which is used to my knowledge insinuating "like chickens" (similar to "tuneklemek"??). I suppose it could describe how newly hatched "chicks" sit/stand around in a "pin"...? Also, this made me curious about the "pin-" in words like "pinti and pinpirik". Does anyone know if they are native to Turkish and what the "pin-" in them may mean...? MK


(<< Back to top)

From: "Skitt" Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 08:52:41 -0400 Organization: Lockheed Martin Corporation We beg you, get this thread out of AUE.


(<< Back to top)

From: sarant@ath.forthnet.gr (Nikos Sarantakos) Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 22:44:30 GMT Organization: FORTHnet S.A. - HELLENIC TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND TELEMATICS APPLICATIONS COMPANY On Sat, 17 Jul 1999 18:18:25 GMT, cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) wrote: >> >>It's also in Turkish, Greek ("flitzani"), and, I think, Serbo-Croatian. >>Egyptians call it a "fingal." It is listed as an English word in the old >>OED, spelled fingan and finjan, meaning "a small porcelain cup used in the >>Levant." It has a lot of letters to be originally Arabic. I bet the Arabs >>got it from the Turks or Persians. > >originally persian. > >turk < `ar. < pers. pinga:n > >> It may be that the Persian word has a Greek ultimate origin, from Greek "pinaka" (acc. of pinaks). At least this is what G.Meyer (Turkische Studien I,51) says, quoting as reference "Justi, Kurd.Gram.XVI". nikos sarantakos


(<< Back to top)

. From: ackc3380@aol.com (ACKC3380) Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: 19 Jul 1999 00:00:48 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Enough, already. Wrong newsgroup. (Interesting though)


(<< Back to top)

From: iscohen@actcom.co.il (Isadora S Cohen) Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 21:23:05 +0200 Organization: ACTCOM - Internet Services 1-800-300123 info@actcom.co.il P&D Schultz wrote: > Isadora S Cohen wrote: > > > Haven't seen [finjan] on your list, nor in any of the subsequent posts > > (but I may have missed it). Arabic, to the best of my knowledge -- of > > the Palestinian variety, most likely, as this is the word used here in > > Israel. > > It's also in Turkish, Greek ("flitzani"), and, I think, Serbo-Croatian. > Egyptians call it a "fingal." It is listed as an English word in the old > OED, spelled fingan and finjan, meaning "a small porcelain cup used in the > Levant." I know it as the thing the coffee is cooked in, not a serving cup. > It has a lot of letters to be originally Arabic. Huh? -I.


(<< Back to top)

From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User) Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 19:12:32 GMT Organization: Yale University On Sat, 17 Jul 1999 21:23:05 +0200, iscohen@actcom.co.il (Isadora S Cohen) wrote: >P&D Schultz wrote: > >> Isadora S Cohen wrote: >> >> > Haven't seen [finjan] on your list, nor in any of the subsequent posts >> > (but I may have missed it). Arabic, to the best of my knowledge -- of >> > the Palestinian variety, most likely, as this is the word used here in >> > Israel. >> >> It's also in Turkish, Greek ("flitzani"), and, I think, Serbo-Croatian. >> Egyptians call it a "fingal." It is listed as an English word in the old >> OED, spelled fingan and finjan, meaning "a small porcelain cup used in the >> Levant." > >I know it as the thing the coffee is cooked in, not a serving cup. teh serving cup in turkish, arabic and persian. > >> It has a lot of letters to be originally Arabic. > >Huh? >-I.


(<< Back to top)

From: iscohen@actcom.co.il (Isadora S Cohen) Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 21:16:58 +0200 Organization: ACTCOM - Internet Services 1-800-300123 info@actcom.co.il Cluster User wrote: > On Sat, 17 Jul 1999 21:23:05 +0200, iscohen@actcom.co.il (Isadora S > Cohen) wrote: > > >P&D Schultz wrote: > > > >> Isadora S Cohen wrote: > >> > >> > Haven't seen [finjan] on your list, nor in any of the subsequent posts > >> > (but I may have missed it). Arabic, to the best of my knowledge -- of > >> > the Palestinian variety, most likely, as this is the word used here in > >> > Israel. > >> > >> It's also in Turkish, Greek ("flitzani"), and, I think, Serbo-Croatian. > >> Egyptians call it a "fingal." It is listed as an English word in the old > >> OED, spelled fingan and finjan, meaning "a small porcelain cup used in the > >> Levant." > > > >I know it as the thing the coffee is cooked in, not a serving cup. > > teh serving cup in turkish, arabic and persian. Looks like we've got some lexical drift going on in the country. If so many people agree it's one thing, and one borrower thinks it's the thing next to it, it's an open and shot case. -I.


(<< Back to top)

From: leila_sab@my-deja.com (Leila A.) Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 00:07:17 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises iscohen@actcom.co.il (Isadora S Cohen) wrote: >P&D Schultz wrote: > >> Isadora S Cohen wrote: >> >> > Haven't seen [finjan] on your list, nor in any of the subsequent posts >> > (but I may have missed it). Arabic, to the best of my knowledge -- of >> > the Palestinian variety, most likely, as this is the word used here in >> > Israel. >> >> It's also in Turkish, Greek ("flitzani"), and, I think, Serbo-Croatian. >> Egyptians call it a "fingal." It is listed as an English word in the old >> OED, spelled fingan and finjan, meaning "a small porcelain cup used in the >> Levant." > >I know it as the thing the coffee is cooked in, not a serving cup. Well Isadora, although I am not particularly fluent in Arabic, I remember my Lebanese aunties asking me to drink a "finjan 'ahweh" and they did not mean I should drink the whole pot. The cup was the finjan, and after drinking, you read the grounds - in the bottom of your individual finjan, not the pot. I do not remember what you call the long handled pot you boil the coffee in - I'll have to ask my Dad. (he's the only Arab we know who won't drink coffee, or tea either) > >> It has a lot of letters to be originally Arabic. > >Huh? >-I. Regards, Leila A. TO REPLY: my friends should e-mail me using leilasab with a domain of yahoo spammers have figured out my other spoiler dont forget the dot com


(<< Back to top)

From: amira@teleport.com (RNR) Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Organization: What's That? Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 21:16:05 -0500 In article <37911a36.579940@news.mindspring.com>, leila_sab@my-deja.com (Leila A.) wrote: > I do not remember what you call the long handled pot you boil the > coffee in - I'll have to ask my Dad. (he's the only Arab we know who > won't drink coffee, or tea either) I don't know if he can legitimately be called an Arab then. ;) Regards, Ranee Microsoft is preparing for the next millenium with a new version of Windows called Windows 2000. The target for release is first quarter, 1901


(<< Back to top)

From: "Philip 'Yes, that's my address' Newton" Subject: Re: Coffee lovers: Origin/meaning of words cezve/ibrik/rakwa/dalla/??? Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 14:51:23 +0200 Organization: Datenrevision GmbH, a Hummingbird Company P&D Schultz wrote: > > Isadora S Cohen wrote: > > > Haven't seen [finjan] on your list, nor in any of the subsequent posts > > (but I may have missed it). Arabic, to the best of my knowledge -- of > > the Palestinian variety, most likely, as this is the word used here in > > Israel. > > It's also in Turkish, Greek ("flitzani"), and, I think, Serbo-Croatian. Also in Albanian, IIRC ("filxhan", a cup). My memory may serve me wrong here, though. Cheers, Philip